SARAH-
Much of your life as an artist has been spent in the field of teaching, is this something you’d always intended or something you found after learning art? What do these Workshops mean to you and has your family always been involved in such programmes?
JILL-
I can’t image a time called “after learning”. I understand your question but when I am teaching I am educating myself in public. They go hand in hand. This is why the workshops work so well. The teacher/ student principle is questioned and many answers present themselves. Thupelo is a Sotho word meaning “to teach/learn by example”. I have tried to stay with this concept in my teaching studio.
I started off teaching craft. This was because it was a potential income producing activity. I taught at Fuba and at Baragwanath hospital. The emphasis was always on creativity, making and doing, thinking, writing or speaking about the experiences and images. The participants had to choose the colours they wanted to work with and draw their own designs. I was mostly working with demoralise people of all ages. They were either ill, recovering or from challenging social environments. I taught in a similar way in Cape Town. This grew into talking about administrative structuring and marketing. Many co ops developed in this way and then the original students started passing on their skills and abilities. The model has always been one from the ground up and not top down, therefore responding to needs and growing and reshaping. In Cape Town I started drawing sessions in our home, working mostly from a model. My family was very much part of these sessions. These were always interactive sessions based on exchange. The workshops, as in Thupelo, have also been deliberately interactional. By this I mean that artists from various backgrounds and experiences can work together. The teaching that I do at summer school is much tighter in that I focus on specific areas of looking and making, as in ways of drawing or what motivates us as artists etc. Next year I will concentrate on the reclining female nude which is provocative conceptually and aesthetically and very interesting historically. I base art on experience rather than principle and use surface, concept, aesthetic, colour, and drawing etc. as a measure of quality. My family is involved with what I do but their interest changes as they grow.
SARAH-
Wasn’t being a teacher something that you started off wanting to be?
JILL-
No.
SARAH-
How much of your work comes from visual memory, do you ever use photographs or paint from sketches?
As a painter do you often work in series…different moods, different inspiring moments?
Does canvas size help determine the painting’s contents?
JILL-
it takes time to find what you are looking for.
In retrospect I find visual memory has influenced my work. I do work from sketches; I use a camera but rarely work from the images other than a reminder of an experience. Yes I work in series but there are many one offs and series go on parallel to one another. I usually work on unstretched canvas. I crop, as in movies, but if I work from sketches, as in the jetty series I make the canvas to the scale of the sketch, proportionately. By changing I throw my eye and this keeps it awake, away from preconception and habit.
SARAH-
How has your husband David influenced; supported; played a role in and affected your work?
How did your children affect or influence your activities and role as an artist?
JILL-
They are aware and insightful, especially David who reads about image making and uses it in his work. He was at art school with me and there were many peripheral courses and reading going on, histories, music, literature, drama, philosophy, psychology, photography, printmaking, film. The disciplines were not separated.
SARAH-
Rothko, Motherwell and Pollock were all inspirations. Rothko’s use of colour is quite awesome. Did you also progress to abstract from figurative?
JILL-
The figurative, non-figurative debate does not apply to my work. I work with both and apply the same question /answer process to decision making. Many pieces of art have inspired me and I try to work from the inside of many artists.
SARAH-
Did you start off in Johannesburg?
By 18yrs you were weaving professionally, what did this entail and what made you choose that as a medium. What place does it hold in your life now and work?
JILL-
I have always been involved in the art world because of Bill Ainslie being my mother’s brother. We lived in Benoni and we used to go and visit him often. When I was a little girl I met Dumile Feni who lived there for a while. Their home was a gathering place. It was the only place where black people were coming to make art as they felt. My parent’s house was also a very creative place. We had a carpentry workshop, a sewing machine and many other possibilities available. In Natal there was a ceramics studio and spinning, weaving, knitting. My mother painted and taught art at the local school. My siblings and I all painted in various ways. As a teenager I learnt how to weave and my father made me a loom. David Koloane came and stayed with us in 1976. I was already in Johannesburg by then, working as a weaver and at art school.
You have to have a way of making money. I made things from very young. I can do all the handcrafts. Weaving was about colour and surface. I wove in clay or wire or paint and dyed or coloured the materials before or after. I also weave stories. Professionally I was very fortunate to find markets that bought the cloths that I made. They were very unusual, uncompromising but they worked! It is also a skill that is easily passed on. It is about time and moving with the mind and body, so is painting.
SARAH–
Yes, no I was wondering where the interest and skill came from because it’s quite a specific one and choice of profession.
JILL-
There was a textile factory in Mooi River. I learnt from a Dutch weaver. We had sheep on the farm. Wool has many mysteries and histories that I can relate to. I learnt to make felt from a Swedish visitor.
I had a very enthusiastic art teacher at boarding school. She encouraged experimentation with many mediums. She also got me to read about art. I needed to make a sculpture in Matric…a cement sculpture of an eight-foot person. That was a wonderful experience. That’s been the thread. When I left school, I knew that I wanted to go and work in an art studio. My parents wanted me to have some sort of degree, so I studied through UNISA. I had two or three wonderful teachers. I think I got up to third or fourth year, doing some academic subjects and some practical subjects.
SARAH–
Is that the philosophy and art history and English?
JILL-
Yes.
I was doing English at the Johannesburg art foundation. My teachers included people like Curtis Nkondu, Lionel Abrahams, Michael Gardener and Robert . It was much richer than the Unisa work. It was the same with the history of art. Clement Greenberg and other art critics visited JHB at that time. It was very stimulating. The JHB Arts foundation where I was a full time student was a very dynamic and diverse place. I was weaving from 5am to 9am, five days a week. I was really lucky because I had two outlets. One was with Peter Soldaritis, a fashion designer and the other was Helen de leuuw. Money was short and I could work with what ever I found.
SARAH-
And what sort of things were you weaving?
JILL-
I was weaving wool and cotton but I was inlaying it with colour and also not cutting. So I would weave the shape of the jacket and hand sew the woven edge.
SARAH–
Do you do that now ever?
JILL–
No I haven’t woven for years. I still teach a bit of spinning. But the weaving is coming through in my painting. Some of my painting is woven in that I stretch pieces and then painted. Otherwise I weave colour onto canvas in various ways.
SARAH-
You also have drawings of woven materials.
JILL-
I did that drawing in Uganda. Drawing for me is about how the eye moves; it weaves marks that transfer into information and rhythms. Colour is more about sound.
JILL-
What was the question?
Oh yes, when did I start painting?
I only started really painting after I had been based in Johannesburg for three years – I started with drawing and then oil paints- two oranges or three eggs. Observational processes. Where do you get colour from? Etc. The other paint followed, enamel, acrylic, mixed media….
SARAH-
Were you making ends meet with your weaving at that point?
JILL–
No – as a student I managed to live very simply and always in communes. I worked at Baragwanath hospital, the JHB art foundation, and at Fuba. I found employment as an unqualified occupational therapist. Working in clinics, making wagons to begin with, then drawing and weaving and paper mache, ceramics, etc. All the projects grew out of some kind of need. We used waste materials mostly, all low budget, some funding and donations.
SARAH-
How did you gain exposure over seas and was your traveling and international shows sponsored? Do you have an Agent or handle it all yourself.
JILL-
I have been on a few group shows overseas. They were sponsored. I don’t have an agent and I sell very little.
SARAH-
In regard to the Internet, do you ever feed the sites about yourself or have little to do with your own coverage?
Is Cape Town your main audience and major source of sales?
JILL–
I rely on galleries to cover the sites. My work does not reproduce well at all. Visitors come from all over and I enjoy the fact that my paintings find homes in such a variety of places, local, abroad, academics, hairdressers, policemen, museums.
SARAH-
What draws you to the point of Abstraction? Bill Ainslie’s influence appears strong in your work; what was gained in that relationship.
JILL-
In the sixties and seventies art in South Africa was very closed, our society was closed. The soul was invisible and very afraid. Thupelo was started to open up an exchange between artists and that included visiting artists from various countries, Africa etc. (It is now part of a network including 23 countries.) Materials were explored, motivations and scale and many discussions were opened up. It was explorative. It inevitably moved into the non-figurative arena as it was opening up, loosening up and seeking both intellectually and in terms of image. Artists were given a chance to work without being told what images to use. The artists who worked in the work shops did not have to obey a market or institution and were not dictated to in any way. This was very liberating.
I like materials, I like to move in the making process and I like to find. This is linked to the idea of an image emerging. It links in to Jung and makes for ritual and meaning. It is not about me and the other it is about finding ways with paint and surface and image, of pulling it altogether, it has its own autonomy. So Bill Ainslie has been part of my life forever and the artists he worked with and the ground that his school covered have had a huge influence on me. It was interactive in the real sense of the word. The work is what mattered. I visit his work as often as I can and holds my attention, even after all these years.
SARAH-
Where is Trans figurative work valued in contemporary society? And in a South African Contemporary society?
JILL-
I don’t know. Trans figurative was the name given to an exhibition of work, not curated but selected because it was not figurative. Firstly there is a trend about painting being dead. Is poetry dead, is the imagination dead? Secondly, it is a very small genre in the sense that there are very few people interested in painting, colour, sound etc.It doesn’t make so much noise and it is being eclipsed at the moment. There is enormous value that is not being seen in our society.
I think there is very little value placed on the arts in general and this is very sad. When we learn to write we stop drawing and looking and so at the other end of this line there is little value placed on image making and therefore no market. It reflects the barrenness that our souls have been part of and I work intently to change this in whichever areas I can. Art is not about trade and industry.
SARAH-
Has technology and digital progression altered anything in your frame of working or affected your place as an artist? How do you feel about it? What are your views on the avant-gardism and minimalist shock art and countless installations taking place?
JILL-
I work with some of the concepts that photographers use, there are many overlaps and that is why I say that the “formalist” ideas are where they all cross over. I use film in my way with paint and the images I use. The best example of this that I have seen is Steve Mac Queen. I am limited by money, I would explore other medium if I could but I also think that working below ones means keeps creativity rigorous. I like all the intellectualism but do find that it is mostly a distraction from actually doing the work and that is where it counts for an artist. I read. It is very difficult to integrate the conceptual and the aesthetic, very few pieces pull this off. When they don’t they are defended intellectually. I don’t think that an autonomous piece needs defending in any way.
SARAH-
In terms of the show you curated at the AVA in 1997, you mention that there’s never been a full exhibition of ‘trans figurative’ works – would this include media such as photography and even digital installations if there were one?
JILL-
Yes
SARAH-
From all I have read, I have only witnessed appreciative and praised reviews.
Ex. “She creates a sense of indeterminate depth, her spirit engages your attention.” 99
‘It is the tingle of inevitability, the thrill of integrated completeness…”Times 03 S
It’s hard to find reviews on you.
JILL-
My reviews have been very generous and complimentary, but not extensive. The crits that I ask for are more stimulating. I wish that more art historians would bridge images to audiences in the media.
SARAH –
I have seen that when I read the paper, there’s little coverage on exhibitions and art, there’s barely good movie coverage, let alone up to date art happenings
JILL-
The discussions that I have had with the Argus are tiring. I am told that there is no readership. They write long reviews about opera and ballet. The arts editor loves opera and ballet? The Berger has good coverage, as do the M and G and the Independent. Visual arts have very few insightful writers. If it is entertaining or sensational it will probably be reviewed. I really like reading reviews on the internet, some of them are so well written it is as if you have seen the show.
SARAH –
I sometimes find unless you know where the galleries are and unless you go and check, I often don’t know what’s happening where; unless you’ve been told to go and see something. I popped into the Michael Stevenson gallery the other day just to see who was exhibiting now.
JILL-
There is so much happening and artist need to talk more to get audiences to move. This is part of being interactive and inclusive. It is about the art world not the individual.
SARAH-
Even through an art institution there’s nothing, little information which informs us.
JILL-
They’ve tried to do it through Art throb and Art South Africa but they’re not actually getting it. That’s the art history department’s problem; art historians should be reviewing work in a serious way. Galleries are not for the elite, especially the SANG. It belongs to us. The AVA work at changing this, through outreach programs and art night, etc.
SARAH-
Why don’t people like Andrew Lamprecht attempt it, they seem to have lots to say about art.
JILL-
That would be good. He is an interesting man. Perhaps the newspapers don’t pay and they also cut reviews, which is disrespectful.
SARAH-
The few reviews I have of you are very nice and there are all these things about “indeterminate depth”.
JILL-
I have never had a negative review. But writers get around that by trying to place the work in an historical context. Perhaps interviews would be more informative. Some gallerists are very well informed.
SARAH-
I was going to ask you that – there aren’t any?
JILL-
I have had tough reviews but not in print. I call people in to talk to me like William Kentridge and Naomi Press. I miss Johannesburg, where we could easily mix with other artists and talk about the work, the attention was on the work. I find that very rigorous. It made me realize how little people look. There was some discussion with Cecil Skotnes around the “jetty series”. He had a problem with my metaphor. I spent some time sitting in his house talking to him and his way of working. It was a very valuable morning.
SARAH-
It’s the same with the music world – there’s a huge hole in Cape Town. Johannesburg is an absolutely different story for live music.
JILL-
I really enjoyed my show at the Bag Factory in JHB. And at the Standard Bank. The artists helped to hang the show and gave opinions, made suggestions. It was friendly and busy and normal. In terms of music, Ray Piri explained how so much attention is given to the industry and so little to the music.
SARAH-
I would tend to agree in some senses. I am locating music for my shop and I know more about the company’s movements than about where to buy the music.
SARAH-
You were nominated a member of the AVA and are chair person now. Why the AVA and how does that help your status as an artist; and how much do you need status in the South African Contemporary Art world? What are your thoughts of the Art scene here and compared to the rest of the world?
JILL-
I have covered some of this. I have been the chairperson of the AVA for a few years. I like to work in organisations that are artist run. The AVA is an independent body and can be moved and shaped, as artists/ curators need it to be. There is very little money involved and what there is has been very generously donated. I think this is improving. There is more money around. There are more bodies promoting visual arts, more artists working for one another. This has been happening in JHB but CT has a different history. The A.V.A has been a place where we have encouraged integration and exchange. VANSA will be a great help and I hope that I can mobilise more in the work that I will be doing for the NAC. Status as an artist keeps changing and does not hold much significance. It is often more about who is talking it up and what they have to say. It is the work that carries the weight and yet they are rarely talked about. I would like to see more shows where images of all kinds talk to one another.
SARAH-
Have you got any shows coming up or workshops?
Is the international market still appealing to you?
What are your next moves and current/ future inspirations or directions?
Is there anything else you’d like to try or do?
JILL-
I want to do my work. I am an artist and work with artists. Next year is wide open like a new piece of paper. I work in my family and on various trusts and other initiatives. I will teach at UCT summer school and hopefully find a place to do other teaching.
Time in my studio is the real gravity.