SARAH-
Much of your life as an artist has been
spent in the field of teaching, is this
something you'd always intended or something
you found after learning art?
What do these Workshops mean to you and
has your family always been involved in
such programmes?
JILL-
I can’t image a time called “after
learning”. I understand your question
but when I am teaching I am educating myself
in public. They go hand in hand. This is
why the workshops work so well. The teacher/
student principle is questioned and many
answers present themselves. Thupelo is a
Sotho word meaning “to teach/learn
by example”. I have tried to stay
with this concept in my teaching studio.
I started off teaching craft. This was because
it was a potential income producing activity.
I taught at Fuba and at Baragwanath hospital.
The emphasis was always on creativity, making
and doing, thinking, writing or speaking
about the experiences and images. The participants
had to choose the colours they wanted to
work with and draw their own designs. I
was mostly working with demoralise people
of all ages. They were either ill, recovering
or from challenging social environments.
I taught in a similar way in Cape Town.
This grew into talking about administrative
structuring and marketing. Many co ops developed
in this way and then the original students
started passing on their skills and abilities.
The model has always been one from the ground
up and not top down, therefore responding
to needs and growing and reshaping. In Cape
Town I started drawing sessions in our home,
working mostly from a model. My family was
very much part of these sessions. These
were always interactive sessions based on
exchange. The workshops, as in Thupelo,
have also been deliberately interactional.
By this I mean that artists from various
backgrounds and experiences can work together.
The teaching that I do at summer school
is much tighter in that I focus on specific
areas of looking and making, as in ways
of drawing or what motivates us as artists
etc. Next year I will concentrate on the
reclining female nude which is provocative
conceptually and aesthetically and very
interesting historically. I base art on
experience rather than principle and use
surface, concept, aesthetic, colour, and
drawing etc. as a measure of quality. My
family is involved with what I do but their
interest changes as they grow.
SARAH-
Wasn't being a teacher something that you
started off wanting to be?
JILL-
No.
SARAH-
How much of your work comes from visual
memory, do you ever use photographs or paint
from sketches?
As a painter do you often work in series…different
moods, different inspiring moments?
Does canvas size help determine the painting's
contents?
JILL-
I t takes time to find what you are looking
for.
In retrospect I find visual memory has influenced
my work. I do work from sketches; I use
a camera but rarely work from the images
other than a reminder of an experience.
Yes I work in series but there are many
one offs and series go on parallel to one
another. I usually work on unstretched canvas.
I crop, as in movies, but if I work from
sketches, as in the jetty series I make
the canvas to the scale of the sketch, proportionately.
By changing I throw my eye and this keeps
it awake, away from preconception and habit.
SARAH-
How has your husband David influenced; supported;
played a role in and affected your work?
How did your children affect or influence
your activities and role as an artist?
JILL-
They are aware and insightful, especially
David who reads about image making and uses
it in his work. He was at art school with
me and there were many peripheral courses
and reading going on, histories, music,
literature, drama, philosophy, psychology,
photography, printmaking, film. The disciplines
were not separated.
SARAH-
Rothko, Motherwell and Pollock were all
inspirations. Rothko's use of colour is
quite awesome. Did you also progress to
abstract from figurative?
JILL-
The figurative, non-figurative debate does
not apply to my work. I work with both and
apply the same question /answer process
to decision making. Many pieces of art have
inspired me and I try to work from the inside
of many artists.
SARAH-
Did you start off in Johannesburg?
By 18yrs you were weaving professionally,
what did this entail and what made you choose
that as a medium. What place does it hold
in your life now and work?
JILL-
I have always been involved in the art world
because of Bill Ainslie being my mother's
brother. We lived in Benoni and we used
to go and visit him often. When I was a
little girl I met Dumile Feni who lived
there for a while. Their home was a gathering
place. It was the only place where black
people were coming to make art as they felt.
My parent’s house was also a very
creative place. We had a carpentry workshop,
a sewing machine and many other possibilities
available. In Natal there was a ceramics
studio and spinning, weaving, knitting.
My mother painted and taught art at the
local school. My siblings and I all painted
in various ways. As a teenager I learnt
how to weave and my father made me a loom.
David Koloane came and stayed with us in
1976. I was already in Johannesburg by then,
working as a weaver and at art school.
You have to have a way of making money.
I made things from very young. I can do
all the handcrafts. Weaving was about colour
and surface. I wove in clay or wire or paint
and dyed or coloured the materials before
or after. I also weave stories. Professionally
I was very fortunate to find markets that
bought the cloths that I made. They were
very unusual, uncompromising but they worked!
It is also a skill that is easily passed
on. It is about time and moving with the
mind and body, so is painting.
SARAH-
Yes, no I was wondering where the interest
and skill came from because it's quite a
specific one and choice of profession.
JILL-
There was a textile factory in Mooi River.
I learnt from a Dutch weaver. We had sheep
on the farm. Wool has many mysteries and
histories that I can relate to. I learnt
to make felt from a Swedish visitor.
I had a very enthusiastic art teacher at
boarding school. She encouraged experimentation
with many mediums. She also got me to read
about art. I needed to make a sculpture
in Matric…a cement sculpture of an
eight-foot person. That was a wonderful
experience. That’s been the thread.
When I left school, I knew that I wanted
to go and work in an art studio. My parents
wanted me to have some sort of degree, so
I studied through UNISA. I had two or three
wonderful teachers. I think I got up to
third or fourth year, doing some academic
subjects and some practical subjects.
SARAH-
Is that the philosophy and art history and
English?
JILL-
Yes.
I was doing English at the Johannesburg
art foundation. My teachers included people
like Curtis Nkondu, Lionel Abrahams, Michael
Gardener and Robert . It was much richer
than the Unisa work. It was the same with
the history of art. Clement Greenberg and
other art critics visited JHB at that time.
It was very stimulating. The JHB Arts foundation
where I was a full time student was a very
dynamic and diverse place. I was weaving
from 5am to 9am, five days a week. I was
really lucky because I had two outlets.
One was with Peter Soldaritis, a fashion
designer and the other was Helen de leuuw.
Money was short and I could work with what
ever I found.
SARAH-
And what sort of things were you weaving?
JILL-
I was weaving wool and cotton but I was
inlaying it with colour and also not cutting.
So I would weave the shape of the jacket
and hand sew the woven edge.
SARAH-
Do you do that now ever?
JILL-
No I haven't woven for years. I still teach
a bit of spinning. But the weaving is coming
through in my painting. Some of my painting
is woven in that I stretch pieces and then
painted. Otherwise I weave colour onto canvas
in various ways.
SARAH-
You also have drawings of woven materials.
JILL-
I did that drawing in Uganda. Drawing for
me is about how the eye moves; it weaves
marks that transfer into information and
rhythms. Colour is more about sound.
JILL-
What was the question?
Oh yes, when did I start painting?
I only started really painting
after I had been based in Johannesburg for
three years – I started with drawing
and then oil paints- two oranges or three
eggs. Observational processes. Where do
you get colour from? Etc. The other paint
followed, enamel, acrylic, mixed media….
SARAH-
Were you making ends meet with your weaving
at that point?
JILL-
No – as a student I managed to live
very simply and always in communes. I worked
at Baragwanath hospital, the JHB art foundation,
and at Fuba. I found employment as an unqualified
occupational therapist. Working in clinics,
making wagons to begin with, then drawing
and weaving and paper mache, ceramics, etc.
All the projects grew out of some kind of
need. We used waste materials mostly, all
low budget, some funding and donations.
SARAH-
How did you gain exposure over seas and
was your traveling and international shows
sponsored? Do you have an Agent or handle
it all yourself.
JILL-
I have been on a few group shows overseas.
They were sponsored. I don't have an agent
and I sell very little.
SARAH-
In regard to the Internet, do you ever feed
the sites about yourself or have little
to do with your own coverage?
Is Cape Town your main audience and major
source of sales?
JILL-
I rely on galleries to cover the sites.
My work does not reproduce well at all.
Visitors come from all over and I enjoy
the fact that my paintings find homes in
such a variety of places, local, abroad,
academics, hairdressers, policemen, museums.
SARAH-
What draws you to the point of Abstraction?
Bill Ainslie's influence appears strong
in your work; what was gained in that relationship.
JILL-
In the sixties and seventies art in South
Africa was very closed, our society was
closed. The soul was invisible and very
afraid. Thupelo was started to open up an
exchange between artists and that included
visiting artists from various countries,
Africa etc. (It is now part of a network
including 23 countries.) Materials were
explored, motivations and scale and many
discussions were opened up. It was explorative.
It inevitably moved into the non-figurative
arena as it was opening up, loosening up
and seeking both intellectually and in terms
of image. Artists were given a chance to
work without being told what images to use.
The artists who worked in the work shops
did not have to obey a market or institution
and were not dictated to in any way. This
was very liberating.
I like materials, I like to move in the
making process and I like to find. This
is linked to the idea of an image emerging.
It links in to Jung and makes for ritual
and meaning. It is not about me and the
other it is about finding ways with paint
and surface and image, of pulling it altogether,
it has its own autonomy. So Bill Ainslie
has been part of my life forever and the
artists he worked with and the ground that
his school covered have had a huge influence
on me. It was interactive in the real sense
of the word. The work is what mattered.
I visit his work as often as I can and holds
my attention, even after all these years.
SARAH-
Where is Trans figurative work valued in
contemporary society? And in a South African
Contemporary society?
JILL-
I don't know. Trans figurative was the name
given to an exhibition of work, not curated
but selected because it was not figurative.
Firstly there is a trend about painting
being dead. Is poetry dead, is the imagination
dead? Secondly, it is a very small genre
in the sense that there are very few people
interested in painting, colour, sound etc.It
doesn’t make so much noise and it
is being eclipsed at the moment. There is
enormous value that is not being seen in
our society.
I think there is very little value placed
on the arts in general and this is very
sad. When we learn to write we stop drawing
and looking and so at the other end of this
line there is little value placed on image
making and therefore no market. It reflects
the barrenness that our souls have been
part of and I work intently to change this
in whichever areas I can. Art is not about
trade and industry.
SARAH-
Has technology and digital progression altered
anything in your frame of working or affected
your place as an artist? How do you feel
about it? What are your views on the avant-gardism
and minimalist shock art and countless installations
taking place?
JILL-
I work with some of the concepts that photographers
use, there are many overlaps and that is
why I say that the "formalist"
ideas are where they all cross over. I use
film in my way with paint and the images
I use. The best example of this that I have
seen is Steve Mac Queen. I am limited by
money, I would explore other medium if I
could but I also think that working below
ones means keeps creativity rigorous. I
like all the intellectualism but do find
that it is mostly a distraction from actually
doing the work and that is where it counts
for an artist. I read. It is very difficult
to integrate the conceptual and the aesthetic,
very few pieces pull this off. When they
don’t they are defended intellectually.
I don’t think that an autonomous piece
needs defending in any way.
SARAH-
In terms of the show you curated at the
AVA in 1997, you mention that there's never
been a full exhibition of 'trans figurative'
works – would this include media such
as photography and even digital installations
if there were one?
JILL-
Yes
SARAH-
From all I have read, I have only witnessed
appreciative and praised reviews.
Ex. "She creates a sense of indeterminate
depth, her spirit engages your attention."
'It is the tingle of inevitability, the
thrill of integrated completeness…"Times
03 S
It's hard to find reviews on you.
JILL-
My reviews have been very generous and complimentary,
but not extensive. The crits that I ask
for are more stimulating. I wish that more
art historians would bridge images to audiences
in the media.
SARAH –
I have seen that when I read the paper,
there's little coverage on exhibitions and
art, there's barely good movie coverage,
let alone up to date art happenings
JILL-
The discussions that I have had with the
Argus are tiring. I am told that there is
no readership. They write long reviews about
opera and ballet. The arts editor loves
opera and ballet? The Berger has good coverage,
as do the M and G and the Independent. Visual
arts have very few insightful writers. If
it is entertaining or sensational it will
probably be reviewed. I really like reading
reviews on the internet, some of them are
so well written it is as if you have seen
the show.
SARAH –
I sometimes find unless you know where the
galleries are and unless you go and check,
I often don't know what's happening where;
unless you've been told to go and see something.
I popped into the Michael Stevenson gallery
the other day just to see who was exhibiting
now.
JILL-
There is so much happening and artist need
to talk more to get audiences to move. This
is part of being interactive and inclusive.
It is about the art world not the individual.
SARAH-
Even through an art institution there's
nothing, little information which informs
us.
JILL-
. They've tried to do it through Art throb
and Art South Africa but they're not actually
getting it. That's the art history department's
problem; art historians should be reviewing
work in a serious way. Galleries are not
for the elite, especially the SANG. It belongs
to us. The AVA work at changing this, through
outreach programs and art night, etc.
SARAH-
Why don't people like Andrew Lamprecht attempt
it, they seem to have lots to say about
art.
JILL-
That would be good. He is an interesting
man. Perhaps the newspapers don’t
pay and they also cut reviews, which is
disrespectful.
SARAH-
The few reviews I have of you are very nice
and there are all these things about "indeterminate
depth".
JILL-
I have never had a negative review. But
writers get around that by trying to place
the work in an historical context. Perhaps
interviews would be more informative. Some
gallerists are very well informed.
SARAH-
I was going to ask you that – there
aren't any?
JILL-
I have had tough reviews but not in print.
I call people in to talk to me like William
Kentridge and Naomi Press. I miss Johannesburg,
where we could easily mix with other artists
and talk about the work, the attention was
on the work. I find that very rigorous.
It made me realize how little people look.
There was some discussion with Cecil Skotnes
around the “jetty series”. He
had a problem with my metaphor. I spent
some time sitting in his house talking to
him and his way of working. It was a very
valuable morning.
SARAH-
It's the same with the music world –
there's a huge hole in Cape Town. Johannesburg
is an absolutely different story for live
music.
JILL-
I really enjoyed my show at the Bag Factory
in JHB. And at the Standard Bank. The artists
helped to hang the show and gave opinions,
made suggestions. It was friendly and busy
and normal. In terms of music, Ray Piri
explained how so much attention is given
to the industry and so little to the music.
SARAH-
I would tend to agree in some senses. I
am locating music for my shop and I know
more about the company's movements than
about where to buy the music.
SARAH-
You were nominated a member of the AVA and
are chair person now. Why the AVA and how
does that help your status as an artist;
and how much do you need status in the South
African Contemporary Art world? What are
your thoughts of the Art scene here and
compared to the rest of the world?
JILL-
I have covered some of this. I have been
the chairperson of the AVA for a few years.
I like to work in organisations that are
artist run. The AVA is an independent body
and can be moved and shaped, as artists/
curators need it to be. There is very little
money involved and what there is has been
very generously donated. I think this is
improving. There is more money around. There
are more bodies promoting visual arts, more
artists working for one another. This has
been happening in JHB but CT has a different
history. The A.V.A has been a place where
we have encouraged integration and exchange.
VANSA will be a great help and I hope that
I can mobilise more in the work that I will
be doing for the NAC. Status as an artist
keeps changing and does not hold much significance.
It is often more about who is talking it
up and what they have to say. It is the
work that carries the weight and yet they
are rarely talked about. I would like to
see more shows where images of all kinds
talk to one another.
SARAH-
Have you got any shows coming up or workshops?
Is the international market still appealing
to you?
What are your next moves and current/ future
inspirations or directions?
Is there anything else you'd like to try
or do?
JILL-
I want to do my work. I am an artist and
work with artists. Next year is wide open
like a new piece of paper. I work in my
family and on various trusts and other initiatives.
I will teach at UCT summer school and hopefully
find a place to do other teaching.
Time in my studio is the real gravity.
